oil cooler

[Kodename47 446]

So you are saying that cooler denser air which has given you more explosive force to give you more power combusts cooler as well therefore transfering less heat to the engine block and therefore the fluids used to cool it?

 

I don't quite get that one but hopefully someone can help me get my head around it

I'm sure the temperature has changed since you quoted it

Road and track oil temperatures are different. No matter what James says, the SC does heat up oil quicker than a standard car and high oil temps do become an issue. The temperature ranges that the oil can handle is only part of the picture, as that's only how far you can push it before the oil degrades.

As for oil pressure, it all depends on where you take the reading. I take mine at the filter, at the stock pressure sensor location.

[Ade 517]

The stock pressure switch is at the outlet of the oil pump. The oil galley at the top of the engine next to the oil filter is the feed to the crank. I haven't tested it myself yet but it looks like it reads lower which makes sense...

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Of course they change.. Ever drive produces different figures. Weather ambient temps etc. So they never stay the same.

[Lauren 2259]

I would also state that no matter how hard you think you are able to drive on the road that it won't compare to 15 minutes of lapping a track at high speed in respect of oil temperatures. 

 

Even if the SC does push oil temperatures up, I still would be suprised if it's an issue on the road. I haven't seen over 125C on track (Donington 35C air temp) and I can peddle hard if I want to. 

 

Also I simply do not understand (if someone can explain) how cooler inlet temperatures will reduce oil temperature. 

[Pitman 188]

Also I simply do not understand (if someone can explain) how cooler inlet temperatures will reduce oil temperature. 

 

Lauren, I think that is the question Mas was trying to understand above as well.  To be honest, I also find it a bit strange that cooler IATs somehow manage to change the basic laws of thermodynamics.  I guess they must have changed since I studied thermodynamics as part of my Engineering degree 

 

It is this type of Bro - Science nonsense that has made me loose all interest in this forum, I am afraid. 

[Kodename47 446]

I would also state that no matter how hard you think you are able to drive on the road that it won't compare to 15 minutes of lapping a track at high speed in respect of oil temperatures. 

 

Even if the SC does push oil temperatures up, I still would be suprised if it's an issue on the road. I haven't seen over 125C on track (Donington 35C air temp) and I can peddle hard if I want to.

This is spot on. Oil temperature is very related to RPM which is why track usage will see higher temperatures. When out in Spain sat at 130km/h (3.2K-ish) on the motorways the oil would sit around 106C but as soon as you drop to more normal speeds it almost instantly drops to around 100C.

I also agree, an oil cooler is not necessary for road use. I'd probably consider the baffled sumps first that Abbey offer over an oil cooler. Larger capacity and made of alloy so should help reduce temps a little without the potential of pressure drop.

[Sideways? 33]

Due to water injection and Having much cooler iats it has giving all cooling a knock on effect. Oil temps are lower rarely hit 113. Coolant sticks at 90. Iats peak at 45. That's on very hard driving. Its my weekend toy so its not a pootle kind of car, I blitz it on weekends.

As for oil temps if you use a good oil your good to go from 115-150 degrees.

As for a oil cooler for track I suppose it won't hurt as all cooling is good but for road no need.

Because the meth injection cools the laminova which cools the oil?? That is the only way this makes sense...

[rob275 1817]

Even if it did drop the temps, it would be so marginal it wouldn't be worth mentioning. If you want to drop oil temps, get an oil cooler, don't install meth. James, I can guarantee you that you will not see cooler temps on track without a cooler. 

[Pitman 188]

Because the meth injection cools the laminova which cools the oil?? That is the only way this makes sense...

 

Except that the Laminova core in the Supercharger is there to cool the inlet charge, and has nothing at all to do with the engine oil.

[Ade 517]

I hit 128C oil temps today in 14C ambient. It was on a route I enjoy driving alot and I do thrash the car. I would think I could get it over 130C on a hot day. This is getting a bit high for my liking. ...

[rob275 1817]

Except that the Laminova core in the Supercharger is there to cool the inlet charge, and has nothing at all to do with the engine oil.

 

Pfft Dave, they cool my frappuccino too

 

I hit 128C oil temps today in 14C ambient. It was on a route I enjoy driving alot and I do thrash the car. I would think I could get it over 130C on a hot day. This is getting a bit high for my liking. ...

 

On a hot day, I hit 129 on track. This was with the baffled sump however. Cooler is on my to do list.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Lauren, I think that is the question Mas was trying to understand above as well. To be honest, I also find it a bit strange that cooler IATs somehow manage to change the basic laws of thermodynamics. I guess they must have changed since I studied thermodynamics as part of my Engineering degree

It is this type of Bro - Science nonsense that has made me loose all interest in this forum, I am afraid.

Well it not rocket science. Everyone who has water injection methanol mix all have a cooler engine overall... Fact. Ok please don't think I'm saying they are considerable decreases a couple or 5 degrees Max. I never once said this is an alternative to an oil cooler. But even if I did track I'd be ok. No question an oil cooler is better at cooling oil. I just put out my opinion like everyone else. Again people are to jumpy about my bananas : ) . I've proven it works and makes my s.c and motor more efficient. A few degrees drop in oil and coolant is just a by product of being more efficient.. Simple. No more no less. Bro!!!

I studied sport science so I'm not the guy to explain it. I guess not having water methanol and how it effects combustion engines on your degree does not help as its not part of the course. It is what it is.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Ok I understand some of you work within the tuning scene, race or did, have education about mechanics or just have been playing with cars longer than I've had a licence.

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but you did not believe my methanol injection would work and my theory was not sound and you firmly believed in your own theory, to this day only 2 people have said something positive about the outcome of that tread.

All this from people with your backgrounds, so please don't make this out to be something its not. I simply stated what my ECU tells me. Yes there are drops overall but nothing to write home about.

My theory is this on why I see slightly lower oil and coolant temps as a knock on effect of drastically lower iats.

meth makes for more cooler air temp as we know dropping the intake charge temp helping drop the intake system including manifold and like mine the charger all helping with heat transfer this all in return transferring to a cooler burn in the cylinders also helping drop exhaust temps this in return also helps in the block temps so in short the oil running round the engine has less hi temps to cope with! Simple..

Cooler burns in the cylinders means the engine block is running at a cooler temp so the oil doesn't get as hot , as if you where to have hot air going in only to the engine intake it would make it run very hi in temps.

Point to note this is just my own theory. I'm not educated in this field. I'm just trying to implement my own logic.

[Kodename47 446]

James, your theory is all wrong. You can't look at cylinder/charge temperatures as the only cause of oil temperature.

Is it surprising your coolant temps are no different? Of course not, they are thermostatically controlled and the stock rad is efficient.

The fact is you haven't got proof of a couple of degrees difference, that could at least be down to variation anyway so isn'tisn't even reliable, to then state that as fact is ridiculous. You berate people who have better technical knowledge than yourself.... Good going, bro.

[Ade 517]

Your theory is flawed and your getting a placebo effect based on your assumptions. There are too many real world variables that affect oil temps. Take the car to the track a try in with and without meth injection on the same day....

[Ade 517]

Where's the popcorn smileys when you need it...

[Pitman 188]

Before this totally blows up and gets locked, my final input.

 

Firstly, James, you may well be a corporal in the army (as per your picture in your avatar), but sorry if this does not impress everybody - you have no idea what 99% of the members of the forum's backgrounds are.  The rank of corporal is not exactly very high up the scale.  So, the implied threat you mad to Steve is just plain childish.

 

As far as your theories about the effect of you meth kit are concerned, I cannot be ar$ed to type a full explanation for you here as to the basic theories of how the internal combustion engine works.  What I will say is, there are two sources of heat build up in an engine - the combustion process, and friction.  The temperature of the combustion process has nothing to do with the inlet temperature, but purely the air fuel ratio, specific chemistry of the fuel, and the efficiency of the burn cycle (including relationship to the ignition timing, compression ratio, etc.)  I am not sure what type of gasket the Sprintex inlet manifold has- read heat insulator, but I am pretty sure you will find that there is heat transfer from the engine to the manifold (higher temp to lower temp - basis thermodynamics 101).  I could go on, but I am bored, and need to go to work. If / when we meet up face to face, I will explain it all to you if you want (I have absolutely no fear of your corporal stripes, or your threat above to Steve "You sure? Really! I'm a professional but don't push it.")

 

Dave

[Lauren 2259]

James, yet again you seem to have an unerring knack for upsetting everyone. 

 

I think this is because for the most part you don't have the knowledge you think you have. You haven't proved anyone wrong with your water/methanol injection (its not'meth' btw and we are not American). It gave a small but significant gain, that is all. 

 

But then to claim that it now cools the oil as well is just absolute rubbish and that is, I think your problem, you just for some reason are unable to take any critique, you then take it personally and the next thing you are making threats. This will not be tolerated. 

 

I'm also not impressed with your conduct. Very unprofessional IMO. 

[Sideways? 33]

Except that the Laminova core in the Supercharger is there to cool the inlet charge, and has nothing at all to do with the engine oil.

Right, got it, I wasn't sure there was some kinda oil flow through it or something because I have to admit not being 100% up to speed on the internals of that supercharger...

Anyway, I thought this was a thread about oil coolers? Let's not forget that this is an internet forum and not the real world, people can be as unreasonable as they like BUT we already have a thread discussing meth so let's keep that discussion over there and not clog another thread with unhelpful posts...

[rob275 1817]

Guys I have a job other than this, play nice so I don't have to heavily moderate stuff just because a thread that was useful goes completely off topic.

[hashiriya 52]

In an attempt to bring this back to oil temps and the cooling of oil: 

 

When talking about engine oil, I always make a point about the temperature it reaches. As has been mentioned before oil is less viscous at higher temperatures meaning that it becomes easier to break the boundary layer and therefore have areas which there is no oil and so you have metal on metal friction which can lead to wear and damage.

 

Lower viscosity oil will have less friction but also reach that critical point at lower temperature, where high viscosity oil will have more friction but is more resilient to breaking up at higher temps. The key is to balance these to make sure you are running as efficiently as possible and not letting the oil sap your power away whilst making sure it can give you adequate protection.

 

The stock 0w20 oil is probably very stable up until around 120C but whilst I haven’t tested it I would be wary of it past 130C. If you are consistently running higher than this then you should look at either keeping the temperatures down through cooling or look at running a higher viscosity oil.

The other key thing about engine oil is not just the lubrication that it offers but also how it is able to draw heat away from the engine. Cooling the engine is not just a job for the water/coolant but is helped by the oil also. So if the heat is being transferred form the engine to the oil then naturally the oil gets hotter which is desired based on cooling the engine but as I just mentioned you don’t want it to get so hot that it stops working as a lubricant. Ideally you want to get the heat into the oil at the engine and then get the heat out of the oil away from the engine. This is where an oil cooler can really help.

[Ade 517]

In an attempt to bring this back to oil temps and the cooling of oil: 

 

When talking about engine oil, I always make a point about the temperature it reaches. As has been mentioned before oil is less viscous at higher temperatures meaning that it becomes easier to break the boundary layer and therefore have areas which there is no oil and so you have metal on metal friction which can lead to wear and damage.

 

Lower viscosity oil will have less friction but also reach that critical point at lower temperature, where high viscosity oil will have more friction but is more resilient to breaking up at higher temps. The key is to balance these to make sure you are running as efficiently as possible and not letting the oil sap your power away whilst making sure it can give you adequate protection.

 

The stock 0w20 oil is probably very stable up until around 120C but whilst I haven’t tested it I would be wary of it past 130C. If you are consistently running higher than this then you should look at either keeping the temperatures down through cooling or look at running a higher viscosity oil.

The other key thing about engine oil is not just the lubrication that it offers but also how it is able to draw heat away from the engine. Cooling the engine is not just a job for the water/coolant but is helped by the oil also. So if the heat is being transferred form the engine to the oil then naturally the oil gets hotter which is desired based on cooling the engine but as I just mentioned you don’t want it to get so hot that it stops working as a lubricant. Ideally you want to get the heat into the oil at the engine and then get the heat out of the oil away from the engine. This is where an oil cooler can really help.

 

The Toyota 0W20 oil is top stuff and very stable at high temps. Few things that should be pointed out when looknig at oil viscosity:

 

1) The highest number is the viscosity at 100C. It doesnt nessessaritly tell you what the oil is like at higher temps. Oils with less modifiers like 0W20 compared to 0W40, for example, will typically have better lubrication characteristics at higher temp despite the lower 100C viscosity. Plently of test data over on the ft86club. It mainly down to the modifiers burning up first. better to go for a 10W40 than a 0W40 in the UK.

 

2) Oil pressure plays quite big part in surface tension of the oil. If adding a cooler lowers temps by 20C but you lose 15PSI at the crank inlet this is not an optimal solution IMO. Might bo okay for a stock car, but if you have FI it could cause long term reliability issues as not only are you subjecting the drank/rod bearings to more torque, but also lower surface tension oil. Turbo owners beware, oil pressure rises with RPM and the low end torque of the turbo means you are subjecting the crank/rods to +50-60% more torque with lower oil pressures. This is one example wher the steady boost building characteristics of the centrifugals win. 

[Special K 442]

To get the subject back on track - haha! - I am using both the baffled sump (extra capacity) and the Fensport oil cooler (extra capacity). The larger sump does not significantly reduce the oil temp (according to my Defi guage) as it is shielded from airflow by the undertray. I use Millers 0-30w Nanotech oil.

 

I was worried about my oil temp on track (upwards of 125-130 degrees, temp taken in sump) but revised ducting to my cooler has made a significant difference and I now rarely see above 115. My cooler is mounted in front and to the right of the water/intercooler rads.

 

I have declined to convert a fog light into a ducted airflow to the oil cooler, relying instead on a ducted intake behind the front grill. At 3000+rpm this results in a working oil pressure (Defi guage) of 3.5-4.2bar, taken at the filter. Drops to 1bar on tickover when hot.

 

I have also installed a transmission oil cooler, as 'flash' temperatures in the auto box have reached 700 degrees C according to  FT86 forum (gulp!). This has a separate radiator and electric pump mounted inside the rear bumper - I don't need it for road/Sprint but it is necessary for trackday use. Controlled by a switch on the dash and was part of the race upgraded auto box/torque converter I installed.

 

Now that f/I is exceeding 300bhp - a 50% increase over standard - there can be little doubt that the standard cooling is approaching (or has gone beyond) its design limits. I would therefore recommend anyone looking to fit a turbo or screwpercharger to install an oil cooler kit.

 

Spec K

[Ade 517]

Whats improtant regarding oil temps/pressure is the top end of the rev band. When the car is at full temp on track, what is your oil pressure at 7krpm?

[hashiriya 52]

Just for some reference, this is a graph of oil viscosity of our base Super Racing oil.