Big brake kit time?

[Church 209]

What do you mean, only a slight improvement from uprated pads? I got rotors gloving red, yet with pads i have now, braking still felt same/as consistent as cold. (CSG spec C1 on stock brakes. MPS4 tires. PMU G-four fluid). Variation between misc pads in feel/Mu/consistency/initial bite/cold stop/flatness of Mu vs temps curve/temp range is great. Modulation also was improved noticeably, i now can much easier to left foot brake right amount, even if skills/reflexes are still not there.

[Deacon 1357]

8 minutes ago, Lauren said:

They were, yes. I'm not convinced properly capable pads would have given me the confidence in consistency of braking that I have now though. 

It's a shame you hadn't tried something better than a hybrid, road biased pad then to be able to give an accurate comparison.

Certainly road pads and stock calipers overheat quite quickly when used on track. 

[Rich196 103]

1 hour ago, Deacon said:

It's a shame you hadn't tried something better than a hybrid, road biased pad then to be able to give an accurate comparison.

Certainly road pads and stock calipers overheat quite quickly when used on track. 

Admittedly I have a charged car. However I started with DS2500 pads on stock callipers. 2 laps of donny and they were shot so much fade! Pedal always felt wooden from cold. I then upped the game to carbotech XP10 pads, I removed the disc stone guards and put on GT3 cooling ducts. These were night and day compared to the DS2500, bite was always there and was consistent which made modulation easy. I didn't get any fade when I did brands or Cadwell ect, the tyres would give up before the brakes did! However when it came to man sized stops I was getting fade, this was on the Nurburging GP into T1 hairpin  which was the biggest brake in F1, and Rockingham T1, when you had come off the banking into the hairpin. The common theme is a hairpin big speed 150mph to 30ish? Could have lived with this perhaps but I got through them fast, they did not last long at all. We are talking 4 track days. These pads arent cheap and I didnt see that as sustainable.....

For a spot of context:

The car I came from before the GT86 was a MK3 MX5. Even more track biased. The MX5 was on stock discs and callipers, and Carbotech XP8 pads. This car was around 1100kg, and 190 HP at the fly. It used pretty much the same size disc as the GT86. 290mm x 24mm, the MX5 was a single pot slider the GT86 a twin pot slider.

The MX5 ran Carbotech XP8 pads, and did a complete 10 track day season about 200 track miles per day, and never suffered fade and did a season on a single set of pads.

So the 86 is 150-200kg heavier than the MX5, and has another 70hp? and its was running a very similar sized disc and pad which is going to have a similar thermal capacity. Therefore to gain more thermal capacity a BBK is the only way. This would lead to no fade, greater consistency and lower pad wear. Yes I could have gone for a higher rated pad, it may have stopped the fade, however it was going to generate more heat and probably wear out as quick if not quicker.

I bit the bullet and for the Rayland BBK, Cp9200 calliper and a 330mm disc. I am using a Mintex F4R pad, these are fairly aggressive but cost around £100 so nice and cheap. The brake fade is gone, the consistency is spot on every time making modulation easy, they look great, the wear is low. Oh and the POWER. These rip your face off when you throw out the anker, its my favourite bit of the car. So you can now stop faster, with no fade lap after lap until the tyres give up.

Best track day upgrade for the car!! I would not bother if your not a keen track day goer though. If you do 1 or 2 a year for fun and your not "fast" put a decent set of pads on take the disc stone guards off and put some £20 GT3 ducts on and enjoy.

No matter what brakes you have all ways use decent fluid, you do not want to boil it and end up with no brakes!!! I use RBF600, and always bleed a pedals worth out the calliper when I have the wheels off as thats where its going to boil.

[Lauren 2259]

5 hours ago, Deacon said:

It's a shame you hadn't tried something better than a hybrid, road biased pad then to be able to give an accurate comparison.

Certainly road pads and stock calipers overheat quite quickly when used on track. 

But the reality is I'm not going to mess about changing pads just to go on track. I just want something that does both very well. My setup does that and will out perform whatever pad/disc combination you have on the stock calipers. It's also just as good on the road. I've had over 30K miles out of them now. 

[Deacon 1357]

4 minutes ago, Lauren said:

My setup does that and will out perform whatever pad/disc combination you have on the stock calipers. 

Look forward to seeing the evidence you have to back this up 👍

[Lauren 2259]

Just now, Deacon said:

Look forward to seeing the evidence you have to back this up 👍

It's obvious, they can take more heat. My setup will outperform yours all day long. You don't push as hard as I do on track, I've been out on track the same time as you before, so I've seen the evidence for that and  we had the same pads I believe. So it may be fine for you, but I compete in my car, I don't just cruise round the track. Even on a sprint the extra thermal capacity is useful as you have to be the last of the late brakers as every hundredth of a second counts. 

 

[Church 209]

Not changing pads when going to track may even be amplified on BBK regarding some dailying issues with track capable pads. As due better cooling temps can be even less, thus even harder to keep rotors properly bedded when just daily driving with track capable pads, and have loud squeals at every stop. So not that sure on bit that with BBK one won't need to switch pads. BBK may allow get by with step down in how much track oriented pad compound for same braking, but for optimum braking at track and least NVH issues when DD, two specialized pad sets switched according use will still be best choice. Truth be told, on several BBKs pad change might be even simpler, with taking out/inserting pads from above caliper.

When i hear something like to ease bedding to close off brake cooling ducts .. BBK vs stock brakes - probably same thing. One needs to brake harder and from higher speeds to get same temps for bedding/not wear off that layer during generic daily driving.

[Deacon 1357]

4 minutes ago, Lauren said:

It's obvious, they can take more heat. My setup will outperform yours all day long. You don't push as hard as I do on track, I've been out on track the same time as you before, so I've seen the evidence for that and  we had the same pads I believe. So it may be fine for you, but I compete in my car, I don't just cruise round the track. Even on a sprint the extra thermal capacity is useful as you have to be the last of the late brakers as every hundredth of a second counts. 

 

The only time you've been on track at the same time as me was my first ever trackday in my own 86 😂 and we didn't have the same pads. 

9 minutes ago, Lauren said:

It's obvious, they can take more heat. My setup will outperform yours all day long. You don't push as hard as I do on track, I've been out on track the same time as you before, so I've seen the evidence for that and  we had the same pads I believe. So it may be fine for you, but I compete in my car, I don't just cruise round the track. Even on a sprint the extra thermal capacity is useful as you have to be the last of the late brakers as every hundredth of a second counts. 

 

If nothing else you do make me laugh 😂 

[Lauren 2259]

7 minutes ago, Church said:

Not changing pads when going to track may even be amplified on BBK regarding some dailying issues with track capable pads. As due better cooling temps can be even less, thus even harder to keep rotors properly bedded when just daily driving with track capable pads, and have loud squeals at every stop. So not that sure on bit that with BBK one won't need to switch pads. BBK may allow get by with step down in how much track oriented pad compound for same braking, but for optimum braking at track and least NVH issues when DD, two specialized pad sets switched according use will still be best choice. Truth be told, on several BBKs pad change might be even simpler, with taking out/inserting pads from above caliper.

When i hear something like to ease bedding to close off brake cooling ducts .. BBK vs stock brakes - probably same thing. One needs to brake harder and from higher speeds to get same temps for bedding/not wear off that layer during generic daily driving.

 I run DS2500s. Great for road and track and because my brakes have the thermal capacity for track. We did tried this with measuring caliper temperatures at Blyton Park with Will's car and he never got them that hot. Mine are quieter than stock pads or the incredibly noisy Project Mu's I ran historically. I CBA to dick around changing pads when I simply don't need to. 

[Lauren 2259]

@Deacon didn't realise that Oulton was your first track day? Thought you'd been doing it longer than that?

Well the bottom line is there is no way I'd go back to stock calipers and different discs and pads. More than happy with my setup. Just seems a no brainer for me. 

[surrey86 352]

I used Carbotech xp8 pads on stock calipers & discs with upgraded fluid and brake ducts for a number of track days. They were great for around 5-10 mins, depending on the track, then became inconsistent. You couldn't really brake late as it was unclear what braking action you'd would get from the pedal.

With the Reyland kit and ds2500 there's none of this, they just work the same throughout a 20 min session so you can brake on the limit and trail it in etc reliably.

[Deacon 1357]

1 hour ago, Tubbytommy said:

It really is a pointless argument. 

Those who dont have put up excuses and work arounds

Those who do fit,forget and enjoy.

It makes you wonder why btcc cars dont just run small 2 pot brakes and go a bit slower to keep them cool

They run them because they need them maybe? 

No one is arguing that BBK's are bad. The point is that just sticking on a BBK not specifically designed for the car will make the braking worse than the oem system. The other point is that 99% of people with an 86 don't NEED a BBK. They may chose to have one for aesthetics (perfectly valid reason) but they don't NEED one. 

The shite you keep posting about those who can't drive using stock calipers is just that - shite. Are you suggesting the professional drivers who drove Rogue's 86's in the 24 hour races can't drive because all they had was a pad and fluid upgrade?

If you want to run a BBK with your lowering springs and Toyo T1r's crack on but don't spout such utter drival on the forum. 

[Kodename47 446]

30 minutes ago, Tubbytommy said:

Hit a nerve hehehe 

Just take some tuition you will be fine x

Is SpecK back?

 

[BRZ-123 174]

It definitely is a bit of heavy handedness to justify aftermarket mods saying the car is not good enough as is. For most people in regular track days, they are out for a bit of fun and a bit of learning. Very few are professionally competing and if they are, a track day is not for them.
If one wants a BBK for a very specific reason like they are forced induction or compete professionally and need to go longer before breaks etc, it makes sense but otherwise not.
@tubbytommy you do seem to have the my way or highway approach. Very curious as to how many medals adorn your living room showcase on your competition credentials? If you do, I become your fan as you speak with experience and have delivered. If not , keyboard warrior.
@Lauren you and Kev are experts in TSS and opinions are valued. Just not worth generalizing as people like me do 2 track days / year and to better myself , not compete , so can live with 15 min track times then cool off brakes. So a BBK is really not worth for most GT86 owners.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

[gavin_t 184]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 10:46 AM, Luke said:

 

@gavin_twhat is your current setup that your comfortable with at the moment?

 

Well this thread escalated quickly

 

@Luke Currently running OEM disks and Ds2500. Much prefer these (barring the dust!) to the Performance friction pads I had as the last two sets.

 

I am not professing to be a track day god by any means so am not entering in the argument about the other bits but they do me fine for the amount of time my car sees track and my ability.

I have not driven an 86 with a BBK but do agree with @Lauren that the feel is the main thing that gives you the confidence and therefore better ability. The OEM brakes with uprated pads do still lack in this department a little so I am probably going to go down the BBK route soon. I did have the car mod tokens saved and ready to spend on a BBK kit this year but I spent my tokens on a set of Flex A and track days instead

[Deacon 1357]

32 minutes ago, Tubbytommy said:

I do around 6 to 8 track days a year and have done for many years and also competed in totb but am by no means a race driver although I do posses an ards licence.

My car was purchased mainly for track days and is rarely used on the road.

In my experience most oem brakes are not up to track days even with changing discs.

The only two cars I have had that the oem set up was ok were an sti Impreza and an evo 9

These just required decent pads ,2 piece discs and fluid due to already having brembos fitted.

Whether you believe me or not it's based on experience,the best things you can have for a track day are decent brakes and tyres.

The reason I have ap is not for bling it's because they are the best,I have tried alcon where the lack of dust seals caused me issues and also k sport which I just didn't like as they never seemed right and just cheap.

In regard to the toyo tyre and spring comment. 

The toyos are my road wheels and tyres and I would not use on the track as they are not up to the job but were great for road use,I would have kept the oem wheels but they dont clear my bbk

For track days I use toyo 888r which are great for dry track days and pilot sport 4 for wet.

Lowering springs are a compromise until I decide on which coilovers to buy, the most important thing is geometry anyway.

Regarding coilovers I have noticed a lot of people are using bc and the like which from my experience are just cheap Chinese rubbish that seize and knock within 6 months and oem set up is better.

Having experienced both oem and bbk on a gt86 surely that makes me speak from experience rather than someone who has only ever Used OEM

 

As you were...

Just a shame you've come across as such an arse then 🤷‍♂️

[Deacon 1357]

11 minutes ago, Tubbytommy said:

Possibly but sometimes things come across differently when written down.

I dont claim to be an expert but my findings are based on real experiences.

I found a lot of my enjoyment of track days ruined by oem brakes overheating or fading. 

Once you have experienced brake fade at speed you tend to lose all confidence in your brakes and therefore slow down,part of the enjoyment of track days for me is driving on the limit where it's safe to do so so anything that stops me doing that is changed out and from experience its brakes first then tyres. The rest comes after.

I'm a bit confused by some of what you wrote previously, so just for clarity, how many track days have you done in the 86 (not other cars)? 

[Church 209]

Lack of dust seals on BBK caused issues? LOL, remembering people with wast track experience from forum other side of sea telling, that if those soon not crumbling due high temps burning them off, then one brakes on track too light, and hence the reason why many race calipers (for example ones in AP Sprint/Endurance kits) don't have them in first place .

Also Toyo 888 .. you should have mentioned sooner that running low threadwear track tires. Yes, certainly, stockers might be far from good match with such. Yet vast majority of twin owners, even if happen to track aswell, mostly daily drive theirs, and most probably won't choose/use for DD car tires with bad wet grip tires with very short life/wear. Hence - your patronizing opinion/choices are applicable as better choice only to very narrow niche of all the owners/drivers. So i guess i'll happily stay among those with "OEM brakes", thus among "those who cant drive".

[Ade 517]

Here is my take on this.

Firstly I believe it is a myth that inexperienced drivers that brake early are the one overheating their brakes. The faster you go the more kinetic energy goes into the brakes. If you over brake and take the corner slowly you'll be going slower at the end the straight ect.

Some people are faster than other and that's a fact. Some will struggle to fade DS2500 others will fade them in one lap ect...

 

Jeff is correct you don need a BBK to track a GT86. Proper race pads that work best when the disc is glowing will give you fade free performance for ~20min track sessions. TMG racecars used to run Project Mu999 then switched to carbotech for long disc life until they eventually fitted Alcon brake kits. 

I ran project Mu Racer 999 which are not the best race pad by any means but they didnt fade after 30minute at bedford on a supercharged car. 

However there are drawbacks:

1) Disc wear was high. I took 25% of the disc life in one trackday.

2) They are not road friendly at all; screeching, grinding and poor bite at low temp. So you have to switch pads out.

3) The high temperature can damage the piston seals in the caliper meaning they need rebuilding more often; one of my calipers was leaking after the bedford trackday

4) Even if the caliper doesnt leak, the dust boots will get burned up, exposing the steel piston to road salt leading to eventual seizing. 

5) you might have to use race fluid which needs changing more often

 

So I fitted a 355mm x 32mm 6 pot AP kit so I could run soft road friendly pads on road or track and never worry about reliability as the disc never goes much beyond 350C. Its a choice I made for convenience. Does it stop faster than stock caliper and Project mu 999? Not a chance.

In the early 90s the 600+HP 230+mph Mclaren F1 came with 330mmx28mm discs. It also came with race pads and if you watch some of the youtube videos you will find they screech like buggery. They also dont hold up very long on track. 

Now you buy a £1M hypercar and they come with 400+mm ceramic brakes  with 8 pot calipers and you can drive on road or track and never worry and they are super quiet and work in cold conditions. 

 

Racecars use race calipers and use the smallest, lightest disc they can get away with. Different kettle of fish and not recommend for UK winter driving. Yes Church lack of dust boot mean salt ingress and your steel pistons will eventually seize or become pitted and leak. 

 

A the end of the day it choice of convenience but my goal was a car I could drive on road or track and it will handle it in it stride. 

 

[Church 209]

Then i suggest to check their state from time to time and eg. replace on need to basis (eg. prior winter, if you use them all year round). Rubber seals not far from gloving red rotors does not seems to be good long lasting match :). Also salt on public roads in winter may add issues not just with calipers without dust seals. Another potentially problematic point might be two-piece rotors of electrically dissimilar metals. Throw on those electrolyte in way of salted winter water ..

[Ade 517]

6 minutes ago, Church said:

Then i suggest to check their state from time to time and eg. replace on need to basis (eg. prior winter, if you use them all year round). Rubber seals not far from gloving red rotors does not seems to be good long lasting match :). Also salt on public roads in winter may add issues not just with calipers without dust seals. Another potentially problematic point might be two-piece rotors of electrically dissimilar metals. Throw on those electrolyte in way of salted winter water .. 

Two piece bolted discs with aluminum bells seem to hold up fine. Many OEMs come with such discs such as Nissan GTR and AMG Mercedes ect..... but at all use calipers designed to run through the winter.... Not race calipers.

[KevinA 695]

Well I missed this developing debate lol, there will always be a huge range of drivers and skill sets, not to mention the use they are subjected to. Driving style plays a big part in this as well, on a personal note after going FI the OEM set up just doesn't cut it for both sprints or track days. If you can prevent or disperse heat using a BBK then it is the way forward, not many will be concerned or going quick enough to worry about bias. When NA and with a mix of sprinting and track days I tried various combinations of OEM size discs and varying pads, quite simply a reputable BBK at that point would have been an advantage. Given there are so many different routes to take, this thread will probably not help anybody.

[Lauren 2259]

5 hours ago, BRZ-123 said:

I you and Kev are experts in TSS and opinions are valued. Just not worth generalizing as people like me do 2 track days / year and to better myself , not compete , so can live with 15 min track times then cool off brakes. So a BBK is really not worth for most GT86 owners.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
 

I totally get that you are right and this is I guess the point that @Deacon is making they are not necessary if you are doing a few trackdays a year and as Jeff pointed out track orientated pads with matching discs will be up for the job if you are. So yes, not worth it for the majority of owners who go and have a play. Even in the sprint series the stock calipers with different pads will do the job and won't hold you back from being competitive. Look at Rob Dowsett competing in my class in a stock car bar PS4's. He's not far off. 

I would concur with @Ade for the reason for going BBK as I do at lot of miles on the road. 

[Luke 193]

Isn't it great how we can all have a heated debate on the forum and still come out friends in the end. 

My analysis of everyone's input is:

Fit a bbk with pretty much any reputable pad and disc combo will work. 

Stick with oem calipers and put a good disc and pad combo in for track use, you'll have no problems for most drivers. However eventually after extended stints on track the heat through the brakes will damage the caliper seal and cause a fluid leak. 

You could of course rebuild this you'll be good to go again for a limited time before having to repair again. 

That life expectancy is entirely based on driving habits and spirited driving mileage.

[Church 209]

Damaged/burnt piston dust seals won't cause fluid leak. They are more to reduce crap getting in and increasing friction/wear & corrosion, increasing chance of pistons sticking, not retracting.

If one tracks his car, one should spend more attention/time for regular brakes maintenance/overhaul irrelevant to if those are stock or aftermarket BBK calipers though. Just like reducing fluid change intervals, inspection of state of misc parts/systems of engine/transmission/suspension. Higher loads, higher wear/degradation, more frequent replacement to keep in good shape.